Curse

Warskull · Apr 05, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

AoR won't save you from a direct confrontation a Warrior, especially since its inefficiencies in healing per spell forces you to cast a lot more to heal yourself, which means you're going to be standing in one spot a lot more, letting the warrior beat on you even more. In other words, it barely even helps versus a warrior.

Actually, it probably even hurts more than it helps vs a warrior. I can't imagine Aura of Restoration out healing even a semi-decent warrior. Chances are you would mitigate far more damage by kiting.

Akane · Apr 05, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Hey, I didn't say it was a GOOD warrior.

LightningHell · Apr 05, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

We take the assumption that the warrior is good by granted.

KelvinC · Apr 05, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

For the ele spells to work, it need a lot of energy. If it need lot of energy, it need to have energy managment skills.

The problem is those energy management skill eat up 2-3 skills slot and a elite, some cause exhaustion as well.

This greatly restricts the ele because they now only have 4-5 slots for real skills (exclude res signet)

I think the best solution is:
Higher the energy storage attribute gives more energy regen as well.

So it allow ele to be effective without needing to bring too much energy management skills. This will unlock more skill slots for ele to use.

Formina · Apr 05, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelvinC

I think the best solution is:
Higher the energy storage attribute gives more energy regen as well.

I think that the main problem with that idea is with Ether Prodigy and how it it already gives you an additional +6 energy regen.

If Elementalists had a base energy regen of more than 4, the effect of Ether Prodigy would be largely diminished - and you need to put points into Energy Storage if you want it to work in the first place.

KelvinC · Apr 05, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formina

I think that the main problem with that idea is with Ether Prodigy and how it it already gives you an additional +6 energy regen.

If Elementalists had a base energy regen of more than 4, the effect of Ether Prodigy would be largely diminished - and you need to put points into Energy Storage if you want it to work in the first place.

Since people don't need more energy then they are needed. So people will not be FORCED to bring ether prodigy. Therefore it leaves more skill slots for other skills.

NatalieD · Apr 05, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Kevin, that still doesn't address the issue of elemental spells not being worthwhile to cast in most cases. Even surfeited with energy, elementalists are frequently better off using it cast spells from their secondary.

LightningHell · Apr 05, 2006, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

Kevin, that still doesn't address the issue of elemental spells not being worthwhile to cast in most cases. Even surfeited with energy, elementalists are frequently better off using it cast spells from their secondary.

Which were why there were E/Mo smites.

Formina · Apr 05, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelvinC

Since people don't need more energy then they are needed. So people will not be FORCED to bring ether prodigy. Therefore it leaves more skill slots for other skills.

Yes, and this would make Ether Prodigy useless, because no one would run it.

We don't want to make any skill useless for Elementalists... =|

DarkAynjil · Apr 05, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelvinC

I think the best solution is:
Higher the energy storage attribute gives more energy regen as well.

Umm --- no. Think about that for a second. If an Elementalist had a base energy regen of 5, why would i play primary Monk? I would just use an E/Mo.
Only in the cases where I absolutely had to have divine favor would i use a monk primary, if an ele primary gave me higher energy regen. bad idea, through and through. Elementalists don't need more energy - we all know this. Elementalists need more "value" for their energy investments. As it is now, spells in the elemental lines that have good value for their cost (Meteor Shower for example, with its knock-downs and high damage) are saddled with ludicrous "extra costs" like the 5 second cast-time, coupled with exhaustion, followed by a 60-second cool-down. If Meteor Shower had a 3-second cast, and a 15 or 20-second cool-down, with no exhaustion, i think you would see it used in PvP a LOT. Most fire AoE's are hit with these burdens, making fire outright useless for PvP in most situations. Air has only marginal damage, but makes up for it with "added effects" damage + weakness makes enervating charge a cool little skill for 10 E. The thing that makes air playable is the low e-costs and short recharges.

Sha Noran · Apr 09, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

I took a long read through this whole thread, and it seems like (IMO) the biggest problem Eles face was hardly touched on: Exhaustion.

It seems to me that the Devs original plan with Exhaustion (from here forward, EX) was to make the more powerful Ele skills not usable to players with an Ele secondary. The problem is that, in reality, EX makes most of these spells unrealistic for even a primary Ele to use. I suppose they thought that Energy Storage would negate this... but really, since there is no way to get rid of EX, then a few spells in and you're running on Warrior energy, scared to use anymore skills for fear of EX'ing your whole bar.

Since this is a PVP thread, I'll use a classic direct damage skill for an example:

Obsidian Flame [Spell] 5E 2S Cast 5S Recharge
Deal 22-94 damage to target foe. This Spell ignores armor but causes Exhaustion.

Let's be honest... this spell is poorly thought out. The conditions of its use just don't work together; it's E/Cast/Recharge portions all suggest spammability, but with the EX tossed in, it's just silly that the recharge and such is so low. I suppose they thought that an Ele with sufficient ES (Energy Storage) would be able to use this skill quite a bit, while someone without ES would be EX'd too quickly... but that's not right.

I'm finding my point difficult to explain. No sleep ftl. :-/

Ok, let me compare this to Necro hp sacrifices. If a Necro sacrifices 10% max hp, its not GONE, its just, used for now. He'll get it healed back. If Necro sacrificing worked like EX, NO Nec sac skills would ever be used. Which is sort of how it is with EX... you just can't viably make a build with a lot of EX spells because if you use up your energy, its just GONE.

That really wasn't a very good analogy... but hopefully it made my point clear. Anyhoo, the suggestion I'm trying to get around to is this: There should be 1) An ES skill (most likely Elite) that gets rid of your EX, or at least makes it desolve a bit quicker, and 2) A passive portion of the ES Attribute should be quicker EX recovery.

Would this really makes Eles too powerful? I mean, I see why EX exists and I think it was a good move by ANet, but really, its just TOO much the way it is now.

Ensign · Apr 09, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

It seems to me that the Devs original plan with Exhaustion (from here forward, EX) was to make the more powerful Ele skills not usable to players with an Ele secondary. The problem is that, in reality, EX makes most of these spells unrealistic for even a primary Ele to use.

Actually it works the other way - exhaustion makes elementalist skills perfectly playable on a secondary, because exhaustion goes away at the same rate for everyone. If there's a problem it's with the way the exhaustion is used. Basically it's put onto two types of skills - one, on strong, spammable effects to limit their use with a mechanism other than high energy cost (ala Obsidian Flame or Gale), the other, on ridiculously overpriced AoE skills to make them even more silly.

The former case makes exhaustion skills attractive for any character, because they can take a cheap effective skill and just use it every 30 seconds in the aggregate because that's steady state exhaustion. The latter case I really don't understand. I guess there was some fear of a single character spamming high energy, huge cast time AoE spells over and over again? I don't know.

Actually the problem is a bit worse than you point out, because only elementalists really care about exhaustion. Why? Because they're the ones who have to deal with it being all over their skillset when making a character. A character that goes /elementalist can just cherry pick a cheap exhaustion skill to splash into their build (like Gale) and never really worry about exhaustion at all while benefiting from the strong effect. A primary has to watch how much exhaustion he has on his bar to make sure he doesn't overdo it. Of course the good emanagement options (Ether Prodigy, soon Second Wind) cause exhaustion as well, creating this weird situation where secondary elementalists actually get more milage out of 'active' exhaustion skills than the primaries realistically can.

Peace,
-CxE

Vindexus · Apr 09, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Perhaps Exhaustion could dissipate more quickly with the more points in Energy Storage you have?

Sha Noran · Apr 09, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Actually it works the other way - exhaustion makes elementalist skills perfectly playable on a secondary, because exhaustion goes away at the same rate for everyone. If there's a problem it's with the way the exhaustion is used. Basically it's put onto two types of skills - one, on strong, spammable effects to limit their use with a mechanism other than high energy cost (ala Obsidian Flame or Gale), the other, on ridiculously overpriced AoE skills to make them even more silly.

Good point. My original example was Meteor Shower, but then I switched to Obsidian Flame because it makes more sense to discuss in a PVP discussion. Meteor Shower/Maelstrom/etc. are already so ridiculous I don't see the point of there being exhaustion too... everything is horrid about that skill. 25E, 5 second cast, 60 second recharge, AND EX? Get real. Even for PVE that's just bloody insane.

However, despite you being (IMO) 100% right about what it does, my point is that that's the whole problem; that isn't what was supposed to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Perhaps Exhaustion could dissipate more quickly with the more points in Energy Storage you have?

Yea, that's what I was saying. :-D

Ensign · Apr 09, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

However, despite you being (IMO) 100% right about what it does, my point is that that's the whole problem; that isn't what was supposed to happen.

I'm not so sure. Exhaustion is supposed to be a limiting mechanic to keep certain skills, or certain types of skills, from being spammed - I don't think it was intended to be a mechanic that made certain skills primary-only. However the consequence of that, exhaustion skills being more attractive on secondaries than primaries, is almost certainly unintended but problematic nonetheless.

Peace,
-CxE

Sha Noran · Apr 09, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Well, you would at least like to think that Eles would have a way to deal with the EX that ONLY thier skills cause.

And I wasn't implying that they're primary only; just very, very much more practical for use as a primary Ele. As a parallel, Ranger skills are usable for everyone, but without Expertise such use is just not practical (as a general rule).

angshuman · Apr 10, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Since Second Wind was mentioned, I'd like to show you some numbers I ran in an attempt to discover the tradeoffs offered by the skill. I posted these results already in another thread, but since that thread was not entirely related to Eles, I'm re-posting them here. Please let me know if any of you find any errors with the equations. I am using the traditional metric of "effective pips" to determine the effectiveness of the skill.

First, the ideal best case: At 16 Energy Storage, and with a +15 Energy Staff, Second Wind will give you a constant ~3.6 pips of energy regen with an available (non-exhausted) energy pool of 41.

More generally, let E be your total energy pool (thanks to Energy Storage, Foci, Insightful Staff, whatever). Assume that you want to cast Second Wind as often as possible in order to maximize regen, but yet maintain a fixed non-increasing amount of exhaustion. Then, at steady state, your available non-exhausted energy pool E_av is given by:

E_av = (E - 10) / 2

and your effective additional pips r due to Second Wind is given by:

r = (E_av - 5) / 10

To achieve this, build up your exhaustion until your available pool equals (E_av + 10), and then cast Second Wind every 30 seconds. Note that these equations are valid only for the optimal pip-maximizing operating point as described above. You could maintain a lower steady-state exhaustion, but you will receive lesser regen. However, increasing the amount of exhaustion beyond this optimal point will *not* buy you any additional pips.

Disclaimer: All this is completely theoretical based on skill descriptions I have read. I have not observed the behavior of this skill during gameplay at all. If my estimations turn out to be completely out of line, do not kill me

Rey Lentless · Apr 10, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Perhaps Exhaustion could dissipate more quickly with the more points in Energy Storage you have?

I would like to see exhaustion be dealt with via skills and possibly by energy storage in some way. Right now, there's glyph of energy.. and that's it. There's nothing that lowers exhaustion, makes it dissipate more quickly, or anything else that allows some variation. Be nice to have some options as far as exhaution is concerned. It is a 'hard cap' in there for balance reasons, but glyph of energy certainly isn't game breaking and I think other exhaustion related skills (or like you suggested) could be put in to make things more interesting.

Phoenix Arrows · Apr 10, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

New skill perhaps?

Exhausting Removal [E]
Cost: 10 energy Casting: 2 seconds Recharge: 90 seconds
No-Attribute
You lose all exhaustion. For each point of exhaustion removed, you take 3 damage.

Sha Noran · Apr 10, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Omg, making that skill no attribute defeats the purpose... the attribute must be Energy Storage based.